For those of you looking for my Frugal Friday post, you’ve found it – but I wanted to point out that this is an older post (note the date) and there have been some changes since. Please see my updated post, God Provides, for an update on our budget! Also, we have, unfortunately, had to stop using the homemade laundry soap for diapers as they caused an invisible build-up which repelled liquids (not good!). We still use it for all other laundry, though. Now onto your regularly scheduled Frugal Friday post:
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It seems a lot of the mommy blogs have this theme in common: living frugally. Typically, when I get into a conversation on saving money, the same solutions are offered to me. They are:
- Stop eating out.
- Stop going out.
And then the person who gives me these tips exclaims something along the lines of: “I have saved so much money by avoiding Starbucks!”
*Giggle*
No offense to anyone who has saved money this way; please, understand I am glad you have conquered your addiction and see a new priority in your budget. However… we don’t eat out and we don’t go out. The last movie we saw in the theater was The Da Vinci Code and my in-laws paid for it! When we eat out, it’s either because my mom is here or it’s ice cream at Ollie’s (and that’s once a month if we’re lucky!). So I had to get creative when we moved and decided I would not get a job and thus would have to survive on a $13,000 graduate student stipend.
So without further ado, here is my own personal survival story:
Step One: Come to peace with the fact that your husband is still a student. After voicing your opinion and your desire, let him make the final decision. Then be still and know that God will provide.
Step Two: Make it a game before you lose your mind entirely. I call it the Frugal Amish Game. The point of the game is to survive on less than you ever thought possible through creative solutions. And I’m winning!
Here are some things I’ve discovered that help me play my Game:
- We use cloth diapers. The average cost to use disposable diapers for three years is $2000. And then another $2000 for the next child. The average cost to use cloth diapers for three years is $700. And the next child is free. Since I am a mother of two, that’s $3300 I’m saving every year. And then, of course, add in the environmental reasons, and I’m completely convinced. We also use cloth wipes and make our own wipe solution. I love going right past the diaper aisle in Wal-Mart and thumbing my nose at The Man. When you only have $170 each month to spend on household cleaners, toiletries, gas, and emergencies, being able to skip this aisle gives me great satisfaction and I get to move ahead two spaces in my Game.
- We don’t use a dryer. We live in an apartment that does not have washer and dryer hookups. This used to cost us over $10/week in quarters just on the washing machine downstairs alone. I just couldn’t afford to double that for the luxury of a dryer. I have two wooden clothes racks permanently set up in our living room with a fan blowing on them at all times. Recently, I also purchased some clothesline and affixed it to the railing of our balcony because sunny days are here again and that means softer and faster drying clothes! To save us over $50/month more, my husband also (possibly illegally) hooked up our own washing machine in our apartment to the plumbing beneath our kitchen sink. I kept waiting for the water bill to go up, but guess what? It went down. I don’t understand it either, but hey, I’ll accept it. I was also afraid that the maintenance men would tell on us, but so far they have only expressed how impressed they are with my husband’s ingenuity.
- While on the topic of diapers and laundry, the next logical play in my Game would have to be…. Make your own laundry detergent. This idea and recipe was completely stolen from this site. It’s easy and it’s ridiculously cheap and it’s extremely effective, and it’s even good for cloth diapers (and just about every store bought detergent contains something that shouldn’t be used in washing cloth diapers). The cost comparison here follows as this: If you use Tide, you are spending approximately $0.50 per load. With this recipe, I spend less than $0.01 per load. And it lasts forever! I only have to use one tablespoon per load. My original batch has lasted me about two weeks so far (doing 1-2 loads per day) and it’s still half-full. And it was only 2 1/2 cups of powder to begin with! I still have an almost full box of washing soda and borax in my closet! *Sigh* Another aisle I get to walk right by in Wal-Mart. *Moves ahead two spaces* (Confession: I still use Downy fabric softener. It’s a smell from my childhood that I’m not sure I’ll be able to give up! Plus, you use so little of it and my great big bottle will last so long… We’ll see how the budget works and if it gets to stay.)
- Speaking of budgets – Must have one! Not just one in your mind where you know you shouldn’t spend “too much”. I tried this method and failed miserably. Then I learned to use Excel. Oh, this was exciting! This program actually adds up your expenses for you, if you program it right! Then my rocket scientist husband comes home and I exclaim to him my recent discoveries about Excel and he gives a very bemused smile as he comes over to see what I’ve accomplished. Here is a copy of our budget for your perusal. The non-bill section is what we have to work on the most. The “Other” expenses so far have gone towards parking tickets and library fees, and has been reserved for an oil change in the month to come. The “Eating Out” fund is there just in case we actually behave ourselves (financially) all month and then we get to treat ourselves to ice cream! More times than not, it goes to the Wal-Mart fund. Keeping Wal-Mart expenses under $80 is the most difficult thing I have ever done. You might be tempted to quit at this point, but this budget is actually the highlight of my Frugal Amish Game. In a culture where you rarely see actual money, I desperately needed a tangible way of knowing if I was keeping our family afloat. Seeing the “Accumulation” category grow each month gives me an intense feeling of satisfaction I never felt back in my pre-budget days. Two more notes: The “Extra Income” category is for any Pampered Chef work I’ve done and the “Savings” goes towards Josh’s tuition fees this May, August, and December. Just in case you thought we were going on a cruise.
- Here’s where it got hard for me. You may have noticed on our budget that there is no section for groceries. Not long after we moved here and started receiving our new paychecks, we realized we didn’t have the money for food. One day I was at the local Medicaid office to see if Olivia qualified. The caseworker then told me that we not only qualified for Olivia, but myself as well (because I was pregnant), and we also qualified for over $300 a month in foodstamps. I took the paper home to show Josh and we discussed our possibilities. Let me interject here that this was during time when Josh was deciding whether to continue his schooling or to apply for the job in Alabama. For me, the choice was easy: Foodstamps or an engineer’s salary? Why take money from the government when you are perfectly capable of making it yourself? However, this is when I learned Step One (see above). My husband has a wonderful view of the future for our family, while I only see the here and now. He decided to pursue his dream job, which requires a PhD. We both agreed that getting his schooling over quickly was better than drawing it out over a decade while also working full-time. This way, he has more time with his family and his grades will be better, hopefully enabling him to get that dream job in the future. And so, we signed on the dotted line.But I was determined not to take advantage of this opportunity. My cart would not contain merely pop, chips, and Ho-Ho’s. I will take the money, but I will spend it on healthful produce. I will bake my desserts instead of buying them. I will make my food from scratch whenever possible. I will save the government as much money as I possibly can so that when we get off foodstamps, they can take the money we didn’t spend and give it to others who need it. To date, we have accumulated over $900 of unspent foodstamp money.
- Lastly, in playing my Frugal Amish Game, the most important rule of all is to never take off your Kingdom Goggles. This is a phrase I picked up from our old Bible study leader in Indianapolis. One night, he passed around a pair of colorful swimming goggles and told us that we must see the world through God’s eyes if we are to resist the worldly temptations that surround us. We must see what will pass away and what will remain of our efforts here on earth. When I put on my Kingdom Goggles in Wal-Mart, I am able to walk past the Little Debbie aisle. I am able to resist the gadgets I never knew I needed until I saw them on display. I am able to see what is needed for nourishment and resist everything else. Yes, we have desserts, but the homemade kind that are cheaper, healthier, and I value them more when I realize the effort that goes into making them! When I put on my Kingdom Goggles, I see the materialism of the culture around me as a trial I must overcome that will test my faith, develop perseverance, and ultimately lead to maturity and completeness, not lacking anything. My Kingdom Goggles also help me to see what James means when he says,
“The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.” (Chapter 1:9-11)
When I feel ashamed at not having the material possessions that this world values so much (a house! a dryer! a bigger “Eating Out” budget! a puppy!), I meditate on this scripture and realize my high position. I rely on God for everything. I know where my blessings come from. I am not fooled into thinking I can provide for myself. I just do what I can with what God gives me. If I were a rich man (Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum) I would have to realize everything I thought I possessed in this world, including my proud, self-made attitude, could disappear at any moment and I would be left with nothing but God’s grace and provision. I would first have to realize the low position I truly held, where nothing is my own, but God’s; then I could take pride in that. Maybe someday I will have to deal with that half of the verse. Right now I just focus on the first half.
So there you go. I’ve just bared my financial soul to you. What do you say? Do you want to play my Frugal Amish Game? Being married to a graduate student is not a prerequisite. You don’t even have to be struggling financially. Just think what you could do for God’s Kingdom with the money you save!
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For more Frugal Friday tips, click here!
Wow. All I can say is……wow.
You are very blessed. You have what matters most to you, a healthy and loving family. Although not rich in the conventional sense, you are very rich in spirit.
I completely understand your thoughts. It’s so difficult to give up selfish materialism to embrace this lifestyle, even when you know it’s “right”. 🙂
Fabulous post, Beth!
I’m so impressed by all the thinking you’ve done about this, as well as the way you stick to it. SO impressed. I thought we did well, by living off one salary and sticking to a budget- but not as well as you. I applaud your creativity, determination, and ingenuity. It looks like you guys are doing things the right way.
I echo Joanna’s comment, Beth. You are really an inspiration to me when I get discouraged about money. After reading your post I went back to Paul and told him I wanted to be more committed to saving money. 🙂 Thanks for encouraging me so much!!
Hi Beth!! I don’t know if you remember me–I lived in Gerig our soph. and jr. years, and my maiden name is Bethany Bergstrom. At any rate, I’m not sure how I ran across your blog, but I love looking at it! Your two little ones are absolutely precious! I am so happy for you! I wanted to let you know that I loved this post on being frugal! I love how you make it into a game!!!! That is awesome! I’m wondering where you buy the washing soda…of course, I’ve never looked for it, but I don’t know where you buy it?…I’m going to try making my own detergent–thanks to your inspiration!!! Thanks for your insight! 🙂 Bethany
First of all, thank you all for your compliments! *Grins*
And, Bethany, I do remember you! Do you have a blog where I can peek into the life you lead now? (Isn’t that what blogs are for?) The washing soda is sold rather randomly, I think. Some people can find it at Wal-Mart, but I had to go to Krogers. (Of course, other people can’t find it at Krogers and have to go elsewhere). Just make sure you don’t get *Baking* soda! 😀 (Even though they do sell it in large boxes in the laundry aisle (Oh, I forgot to say, “Look in the laundry aisle.”))
Wow! What a journey you have been on. I do admire you for your commitment to your family. Even though it is hard now, your kids will really appreciate you for it one day.
However, I disagree with you about one thing. You see, it is all about choices. You have chosen to stay home with your children, which is the right thing for moms to do when they can. You have chosen to follow your husband, which is also the right thing to do. But you both have also chosen to have children at a time when you knew there was a good possibility that your husband would not be able to support a family. Because you made that choice, those of us who earn our living and pay our taxes have had to buy your food, in effect. We did not have a choice about that. In my opinion, welfare is supposed to be for people who are out of choices… to those who have been dealt a rough life and need some help to get back on their feet again. It was not meant for people who, because it was more convenient, chose to continue their education instead of work to feed their family. Check out 2 Thes 3, especially verse 10.
This is just another perspective that you might not have thought of yet. May the Lord bless you all!
Whoa! I think somebody needs to get off their high horse. It’s not surprising that the last post was anonymous. I guess it’s easier to be judgmental when you don’t actually have to stand behind your comments. Sorry for ranting, but the attitude that the anonymous commenter has displayed really bothers me.
In response the above opinions, I have a few comments of my own. I find nothing wrong with asking for a little help now so that I can better serve my family and society in the future (as well as in the present I might add). By staying in school I believe that I will be able to contribute far more to the public than I will have taken. The commenter said that he was paying for our food. What would he say to a person who pays more taxes than he does? Wouldn’t the higher tax payer in effect be paying for the public services the commenter enjoys? With a PhD I will probably get paid more than most Americans, which means I will be paying more taxes than most Americans. I also hope to give a good portion of my income to the church and other mission oriented organizations. I would not hold this over anyone, however, but would consider it a great privilege.
The commenter also gave me a Bible verse to consider. Don’t you love it when people take the Bible out of context to back up whatever their opinion might be? I know I sure do. I’m sure I could find a verse or two to combat the cementer’s, but I don’t like to do that. It is better that you consider the heart of the scriptures and then decide for yourself, rather than go looking for that one verse that will give you the absolute answer to your overly specific question. Anyhow, the verse says, “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.” Obviously the commenter has not been to graduate school himself. Anyone who has knows that you work much harder in school than you do in most industry jobs.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have taken this comment to heart so deeply. I appreciate that the commenter wishes us well. I will pray that God will give me the strength to wish the same for him. I know it’s not the perfect attitude to have, but at least it’s honest.
First of all, I’d like that say that while I agree with my husbands aforementioned points, I did attempt to make his comment a little less emotional. To which he responded, “Thanks for trying” and published it anyway. 😀 I believe one of his chief annoyances was at the anonymity of the comment. *hint* *hint*
Second, to address the “choice” we made of having children while not in the wealthiest of positions:
Believe it or not, we were not trying to get pregnant two years ago. But we sure weren’t going to abort once we saw those two pink lines.
Maybe your point should have been that we should not have gotten married until we were financially ready for the possibility of children. However, in today’s economy, more and more schooling is required for the better paying jobs. I was 20 when we got married. If we would have waited, first to finish college, then two years to get his masters, then three to five years for his doctorate, that would have added 8 more years. I would have been 30 by the time our first child was born.
Studies have proven that the earlier you have children, the less chances there are of things going wrong, both with the labor and with the babies themselves.
I believe it was not God’s purpose for women to wait that long before having children. When Mary was pregnant with Jesus, she was only fifteen! Unfortunately, we live in a fallen world that requires 24 years of schooling in order to get a decent job.
And I believe my husband made a good point in that when he does graduate and get a job, he will be earning significantly more than the average American, which in turn means that we will pay significantly higher taxes. The extra money we give the government when that time comes will pay for the food we are eating today.
I just want to say one thing. You can never afford Children. If you wait until you can afford them you will never have them. Most americans are not making big bucks, those that are either live in places where the cost of living is higher- which evens out the boost in income or have made poor decisions in their past leading to lots of debt. Anyway you look at it you’ll never be able to afford the cost of a child, let alone Children. See God has blessed those of us who CHOOSE to stay home and raise our children instead of getting jobs to have stuff. Yes, Beth did make a Choice- a Choice to raise her own children not let some stranger raise them just so she could give them all the worlds junk. There is nothing wrong with needing help from the government every once and awhile. When you choose to ALWAYS take their assistance and rely on it for your life- then you have a problem. But you can clearly see that Josh is working hard to get ahead and be able to give up foodstamps.
I think Beth has made a good choice and that’s not just because she’s my friend. I would say that to anyone who has young children and is staying at home with them.
As a social worker, I would just like to say that I am happy that a family like Beth’s is using government aid – because I know that they are using it well and for a purpose. Most ALL of the people that I know on food stamps (and I have known quite a few over the years) are not doing anything to better their life or the lives of their children. I would like to think that people who have been “dealt a rough life” (honestly, and through no fault of their own) are the primary people receiving government aid, but in my line of work (granted I am in Southern California, so things may be different in other parts of the country) very few people are without some kind of fault in regards to their current need for welfare (drugs, teenage pregnancy, high school dropout, etc.) I would MUCH prefer for my tax money to go towards the Zaph family than some of my clients – but alas, I image that much more of our tax money goes towards those with ongoing meth addictions than graduate students struggling to provide for their families with a desire to serve Christ at the present and on into the future.
I know my comment on this post is a little late. But Beth, I’m glad you are getting Food Stamps and Medicaid. (I hope you are also getting WIC if you need it.) It actually makes me feel better that the taxes we all pay are being used for good!
Shannon (Blanton)
P.S. I do love my job and my clients. I love to try and help them make better decisions about their money and their future. But in reality, drugs and the cycle of poverty have a strong pull and without Christ, there is little hope.
Found you from 26 cats. I salute you, young Mother.
I’ve not poked around enough to be sure yet, but you sound a lit like our family– only my husband chose to quit at the Masters, so we never had to play the frugal game with babies (we found we were pregnant less-than a year after he graduated).
Amen!!! to God-will-provide. He is So. faithful in all things.
I also appreciated a list (like you mention) that doesn’t include the “obvious” (read, “already doing”) advice.
One question I have, though, is your math on the diapers.
The $3300 might be the total amount saved by you at the end of 6 diaper-child-years (you wanna help me with my units here?) if you know you only spent $700 on the dipes you’re using, and haven’t “wasted” any money already on disposies.
Was the $700 using a service? Just buying pre-folds? Just wondered where that “average” came from. Probably from people using the simplest options. Very functional and economical. There are people who won’t even consider them.
I have seen $15 diapers in a popular diaper shop locally, and learned one can spend *a lot* of money on cloth diapers.
I would be sad to think anyone automatically assumed cloth=cheaper, no matter what. Leaving the environment out of this ;o) there are definitely disposable options that are less than cloth options.
Hope that didn’t sound like a rant.
I CD, actually, but I ran the numbers for about 3 weeks (and knew I would use them on an extra kid) before I took the plunge. Turns out to be a good thing, b/c I ended up not being able to continue CDing my first kids, and they’ve just started to pay for themselves on kid #3.
Feels like a different perspective.
Hope that point doesn’t sound like criticism. I am so proud of you for seeking the positive and living with patience.
Well done!
Amy – Nice to meet you! You’re right; one can spend a LOT on cloth diapers as well. Let’s run down the math of what I’ve spent on my dipes:
Two dozen infant Chinese prefolds at $1.50/dipe = $36
Seven small Bummis Super Wisper Wraps bought on ebay for $35
Five newborn Proraps classic covers for $40
Three snappis for $7.50
18 Premium Chinese prefolds at $2/dipe = $36
Five medium Bummis Super Whisper Wrap for $53.75
So far we’re only up to $208.25.
And yes, we did buy a couple of the $15 diapers for night-time diapering. So add another $30.
And for Christmas last year, I asked for six more for babysitters and church nursery workers who don’t know how to fold a cloth diaper. So you can include that in the cost if you wish, but technically I didn’t pay for it. However, I did get diapers for Christmas – every mother’s dream, right? 🙂
We also spent $15 on a diaper pail. But so far, even if you include the $15 diapers I got for Christmas, we are still far below average.
Oh, and there is no diaper service available where we live (I looked into it!) So I’m sure that cuts costs as well.
But the best part of all is that I’m done! No more diapers to buy! All future kids are covered!
Okay, that’s not true. See, my baby boy is a BIT on the chunky side, and my two-year old is not exactly close to being potty trained, so they will soon be in the same size diaper. So add another dozen premium prefolds and five more medium covers. But THEN I’m done. Promise. 🙂
Wow, takes guts to post your whole budget! Most people don’t even have one let alone be willing to actually show it.
My husband just graduated seminary so I sort of understand the grad school mode. I have to admit I sort of agree with Anonymous in the fact that I don’t think Christians should take govt food support. The church should be helping out and providing for others’ needs. (I realize that doesn’t always happen.) My husband worked two part-time jobs and went to school part-time to provide for our family. We could’ve been on food stamps and/or other help and were very close to applying but felt convicted that it was not the right choice.
But (honestly, I’m not here to beat you up) I do have one good idea if you haven’t heard about it yet is Angel Food, they take food stamps too. It’s for anyone though! http://www.angelfoodministries.com/default.asp
And I would get rid of the cell phone. We’ve never had one. I feel like the only people in America! 🙂 Let other people call you long distance, I think most family members will understand you’re in a very tight spot financially. (or use prepaid minutes cell phone)
Jennifer,
I appreciate your helpful hints, and am not offended. I have been feeling convicted again lately about using the foodstamps (this post was written well over a month ago) and have been trying to use coupons, cut out even more unnecessary items (orange juice, meals that require expensive meats, etc).
Also, I want to direct your attention to a post written just a little after this one: https://www.thenaturalmommy.com/2007/07/10/god-provides/
In that post, we announce that God has graciously allowed my husband to win a $15,000 scholarship! Of course, when you read further in that post, you find we have come across more monthly expenses, such as health insurance and an increase in rent.
The monthly checks for this have just recently started coming and so I am re-tweaking the budget to see how much money we can allot for food. I am excited to see if we can wean ourselves off government support!
Out of curiosity, why is it okay for the church to provide food for the poor, but not the government? Is it because the government uses money forced from the working populace rather than willingly given as the church would do?
It makes you feel sort of good to be able to survive on a low income, not just survive, but enjoy it! i love it when I see other people who are happy on their budget!
We have lived on a very low budget for years, I work hard at it, but still have not used cloth diapers! I do use the cheapo diapers and when I had to pay for washing laundry, it was cheaper. But that is our splurge!
I am so impressed that you are respecting your husband, and trusting God with your finances while you are an excellent steward of your money He has entrusted you will.
You have encouraged me so much! My hubby when online yesterday and found out we qualify for $800 in food stamps each month. Cough cough sputter! I can’t imagine spending that much in food! We were laughing that we could eat filet mignon every night! Woo hoo! (and we totally wouldn’t do that!) I am so proud of you for even being frugal with the food stamps.
God is good!
We, too, accept help in the form of food stamps. I work hard to make that $430 for our family of 7 stretch to cover the whole month (we also get WIC). We only eat meat 4 days a week. Make my own bread and cookies. No junk at all with the food stamps. Yet, there are days when I feel bad for accepting help.
But then I remember things like: I married late and didn’t have my first child until 29. And then went back to work. I didn’t come home until I was 31. So, for 15 years I worked and paid into the “system”.
Next, we still pay into the system via sales taxes and property taxes (via our rent)….both regressive taxes which take a large percentage of our income than higher wage earners. And since we homeschool our children, this year we saved our state some $10K in school costs…far far less than the food stamp help we receive.
Also, this is not a long term plan. My dh is only a couple years away from a promotion that will boost our income to a point where we can “pay our own way” even though we will probably still qualify for help based on family size.
We prayed and sought wise council before applying for help. We are fortunate to have very affordable insurance with dh’s employer (only $70 a month for the whole family, med/dent/vision, $15 copay), so we cover that. After stripping our budget of every luxury (yes, except internet), the gap between income and expense was the exact amount of food stamp help we qualified for.
(It was a lot more two years ago we when started, but dh has gotten raises, so our level of help has decreased. 🙂 )
I’m glad that our society has created a way to help families who need it. And I pray that “anonymous” is never in a position to ask for help. It is very humbling to be here, but I pray the Lord’s glory may shine through me.
Wow Beth, I’m so impressed! I especially like how you’ve made a game out of it. 🙂 I’m glad the detergent is still working for you.
I’ve found a new blog to read! I love this post, it’s so honest with really useful and helpful suggestions.
Jennifer: About the cell phone. Sometimes the most frugal decision is to only have a cell phone, and not a landline! My husband and I crunched the numbers for a long time before deciding that it was cheaper to do it that way. I know Beth doesn’t have a landline either. I supposed one could do without a phone period if one needed to…
I really like your game attitude. Attitude constitutes so much of the battle.
You may also be interestest in the latest Chuck Colson article, For the Sake of the Planet? Anti-Natalism in America, at http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6264. The hateful attitude towards “indiscrimanate breeders” seems to be infiltrating its way even among Christians.
I just want to suggest that you strongly consider getting off government assistance. I was raised by a single mother who raised two children, worked full time, went to grad school and received no child support yet did not get on govt. assistance. Just saying that to say it can be done. I will be honest, I resent and have a lack of respect hearing that as a stay at home mother myself with a husband who works 75 hours a week sometime to support the family and would like to be home more often – that in a sense, he is working to support your family. through govt. assistance. there is nothing biblical or godly about this. It is really an abuse of the system. Your husband choosing to go to grad school is a luxury. He is not Dorian Gray. I read where he said that he will get out with a Phd and make far more money, therefore paying far more taxes. Maybe. Maybe not. The bigger thing is you two are responsible for your family, not the govt. i.e. the rest of us.
My husband does not need to work 75 hours per week to support us and then your family. Get off the govt. assistance and go get a job if you have to. Support yourselves so that other people’s husbands can stop supporting your family. It is not right.
I’m really impressed with how well you’re managing your finances on so little each month! I appreciate your open honesty in sharing your budget and strategies.
All those who are complaining that they are supporting you because you use food stamps seem to forget that their taxes will not decrease at all if you get off of public assistance. No one’s husband is working extra hours to support you. If someone is working extra-long hours, it is because he chooses to, or his employer requires it. It is not for the sake of those on food stamps. It is a non sequitor. Yes, some of your salary goes to pay taxes, which are used in part for public assistance. You don’t get to choose who receives it, nor do you get to set the amount. That money will go to someone, so I’d rather it go to someone who is working hard toward a goal, including the goal of being off food stamps in the future.
Hello! I am the husband of Jennifer, a previous commenter. She asked me to respond to your question: “Out of curiosity, why is it okay for the church to provide food for the poor, but not the government? Is it because the government uses money forced from the working populace rather than willingly given as the church would do?”
Honestly, answering this question is difficult because it is rooted in the relationship between church and state. Obviously, this relationship has always been something that Christians through history have wrestled with. With so much disagreement amongst fellow believers, I think it is best not to be too dogmatic.
At the same time, I do believe that this issue is important, and I think the biblical solution was recognized by Abraham Kuyper in his development of “Sphere Sovereignty.”
Essentially, God has delegated authority to different spheres of this world which must not be confused. Such areas of authority include the sphere of the family, of the church, and of the state. Problems inevitably arise when these separate authorities are confused.
As a result, we should not have the government carrying out any of the responsibilities of the church. Regarding taking care of the poor, elderly, downtrodden, etc., Scripture tells us that the church is responsible. Today’s problem is that the church in America has basically stopped carrying out this function since FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s welfare state.
So what should a poor couple in church do? I don’t think this question can be easily answered without taking into account their specific circumstances. Nevertheless, my wife and I couldn’t ask the government to help us in good conscience (even though we would have qualified for assistance).
I hope that my response is helpful. Regardless, I praise God with you for your husband’s scholarship!
Ashley (and Beth, not trying to hijack your comments),
Getting rid of the cell phone was just an idea. We have a landline (At&t local service and DSL) then a separate long distance plan (can’t remember the name though, I can get the info if you’re really interested) and we pay at most $45 per month, the at&t is 41-42 and we pay long distance about $10 every three months. I know it would be hard to give up a cell phone but might be something to seriously consider. Many other frugal blogs have gone to pre-pay minutes for a cell phone and say it’s much cheaper. My husband’s parents would like us to call more but understand that we can’t afford to call them that much.
Beth, I’ve known you both through your blog and in person for many years now. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on your situation, and have seen the decisions that you and Josh struggle to make. I know I don’t completely agree with your decision to go on government aid, and that used to bother me. But then I realized something important: I cannot make your decisions for you! I am not a ruling member of your family! I know I have spoken my thoughts to you in love, and you lovingly took me seriously and responded to what I said. This is not a moral issue (it’s not like you’re robbing banks for extra money). I respect that you both have thought through everything and prayed about it.
Once I had that epiphany, your choices didn’t bother me anymore. I think sometimes as Christians we need to learn which battles are worth fighting, and which ones we need to let go. We’re supposed to be building each other up, and letting the truth be spoken in love! I admire that you are working your way off of food stamps. I hope that soon Josh will have a “real” job and that you will not have to worry about these things! I also hope and pray that you don’t forget what it was like to struggle, so you can minister to those around you without being judgmental of their choices. I look forward to seeing how God is using these struggles to prepare you for something amazing in the future!
Jennifer: It sounds like your phone service was about the same as ours! We did the no cell phone for about 6 months. We ended up switching to cell phones only (we had cell & landline previously) because my husband was able to get a discount through his work, and also we were doing a lot of traveling and it was getting impossible to coordinate things while on the road. One thing we found for long distance that we really liked was a service called Jajah. It’s basically voice-over-IP technology. We would put in our home phone number, the number that we wanted to call, and then hit connect. Our home phone would ring, and we would pick it up and then it would connect us to the desired number. It was about 2.8 cents a minute for US calls which is a little over 350 minutes for $10. The line was crystal clear! I don’t know how this compares to your long distance, but I highly recommend it.
I read through the comments, and asked my husband what he thought, and he said, “they shoudn’t be on Food Stamps. If he’s a student, expecting to make a good income when he graduates, the family should take out a student loan to meet the expenses that the stipend doesn’t cover.” And I think he’s right. In a way, you are viewing the Food Stamps as a kind of loan which will be paid back through higher taxes in the future, but a prior commenter was right in saying that the difference is that government aid is funded by involuntary taxes that the rest of us pay. (And yes, if you were not on food stamps, in a very small way, it would affect government spending, which would affect our taxes, which would affect the number of hours that a family has to work to earn a given after-tax income.) So a true loan is the more honest thing to do.
I suspect that if your husband was at law school, for example, without a stipend and paying full tuition, it would just be obvious that you would need loans to make it through, but since you have a stipend and can “almost make it,” you have a mindset that means you don’t consider loans. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your situation, in which case, I apologize. But Food Stamps are intended for people unavoidably living on low incomes, abusers of the system notwithstanding.
(And I know there are lots of people who avoid debt no matter what. But there are times when debt is appropriate and working too hard to avoid it is the wrong decision, and a student loan is one of those cases.)
Other than that, I’m just curious: what’s in the Wal-Mart position? Where do your children’s clothes come from? Do you live at a university where you can avoid driving (to reduce the gas cost and to minimize the risk of a costly repair)? Are you in student housing?
Ewokgirl said;”Yes, some of your salary goes to pay taxes, which are used in part for public assistance. You don’t get to choose who receives it, nor do you get to set the amount. That money will go to someone, so I’d rather it go to someone who is working hard toward a goal, including the goal of being off food stamps in the future.”
Yes but when families who are otherwise perfectly healthy and capable (i.e. this family) are using it, it DECREASES THE AMOUNT AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO REALLY NEED IT such as the truly poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, etc.
There are mothers and father where BOTH are working and doing everything they can and may be getting the same amount or nothing at all. There is not a limitless amount of aid available from the govt. The govt. is hugely in debt, but even if they weren’t there is a limit to the amount that can be given out.
I would suggest that this family keep a tab of what they have accepted in the line of food stamps from the govt. and PAY IT BACK 100 % plus interest. Sounds extreme, but as the writer’s husband said, he should be making a lot more money than most so therefore he should be able to afford it.
Also, why can’t your husband get a night job or deliver papers or pizza? I don’t know but my best friends Dad worked THREE jobs so that he didn’t have to go on govt. assistance. He did this for years. btw my own mother, single mother, rolled up papers and delivered them befofe 6 am (we were in the backseat) and then went to work, then grad school, then her night job. Was she exhausted? yes. But she knew that compared to some she had it good. She had her health and her strength and her youth.
This really really gets to me, and I strongly encourage you to think about it. In accepting the financial aid when you can work (yes, you can work from home and not have to put your kids in daycare – you could sell on ebay, freelance, babysit other people’s children, bake, consign, etc etc) and your husband can get more work you are making it unavailable to someone else who definetly needs it more. Someone whose husband truly CANNOT work.
I don’t know how your and your husbands conscience is not searing your mind right now honestly.
Elizabeth –
When you mentioned this: “But Food Stamps are intended for people unavoidably living on low incomes, abusers of the system notwithstanding.” it made me wonder:
Who are the people living “unavoidably” on low incomes? What jobs are they working at? Why are they working there? Is it because of a lack of a higher education? Why do they not pursue a higher education? Is it because of lack of funds? If foodstamps help them achieve the diploma, which in turn helps them achieve the higher paying jobs and with that the ability to pay for their own food, then wouldn’t that end up costing the government <i>less</i> money? (And, Abby, the crippled, the blind, and the lame can all get their doctorate, too.)
Instead of paying for a lifetime of food for the “unavoidably” poor, it would only pay for 4-7 years worth of food. And, making more money, these people would be in a different tax bracket and would be paying more taxes than they were when they were “unavoidably” poor, putting more money into the system to help the new generation of poor, working students.
And for your questions, we live near campus in housing cheaper than married-student-housing (and in considerably better shape). My husband takes the bus to school every day (for free). Our children’s clothes come from Once Upon A Child (a used clothing store), hand-me-downs from relatives, and birthday presents from grandparents. I’m not sure what you mean by “Wal-Mart position,” but I can assume you are referring to the Wal-Mart section in my budget. That is for toiletries (generic), cleaning supplies, school supplies for my husband, and anything else non-edible that we need. Since writing this budget post, I have started shopping CVS and Walgreens deals, and I doubt I spend that much on toiletries anymore. There have been other changes to our budget that you can find here:
https://www.thenaturalmommy.com/2007/07/10/god-provides/
And Abby-
I do believe that humbling myself to the point of taking foodstamps and other aid from the government, along with the criticism of people with mindsets like yours is worth it to be able to be the one to raise my children. And to be able to see my husband enjoy my children. Working three jobs just to make ends meet would help for now, but I hate to think of the consequences in the lives of my children. I hate to think of how I would look back at that lost time with such regret.
You have some good suggestions on possible work from home and I appreciate your concern and help in this area. In fact, one of my goals with this website is to make it an online store. I do sell Pampered Chef on the side, but having just moved to a new area and having a baby who refuses to take a bottle has restricted this opportunity significantly.
Again, thank you for your concern about our conscience and for your advice.
OK, Beth, I’m tired of hearing people criticize you for accepting food stamps, so I’m piping in.
On a personal level, I know your situation, your convictions, and your responsible planning and lifestyle. You do a really good job. There is absolutely nothing irresponsible, unethical, or unChristian about accepting help from the government at this phase in your life. At all. Especially because of how responsibly and frugally you’re living, and how carefully you’re considering your finances. I’m appalled someone would suggest going into debt for living expenses unnecessarily. Run from debt, for the health of your family long-term. I’m proud of you for doing that as much as possible.
On a bigger-than-personal level: Yes, the church should take care of the poor, but, as I see it, the church should see that the poor are taken care of and provided for. If we think outside the typical Christian-ministries box of “food pantries and homeless shelters”, there are other ways that the poor can be taken care of. One of those is through the government, via lower taxes, higher minimum wage, and food stamps. It blows me away that Christians would ever be against something that is helping a group that God says is so near to His heart. One way Christians can make sure the poor are cared for is by supporting policies that give the poor a break. Will this cause higher taxes for everyone else? Sure. But the ‘everyone else’ is rich, and we know what God says about rich people… And when the Church is finally doing her job (which obviously is also something we should work toward), the government will have to scale back their programs, because they won’t be used. Until then, ANY way we as Christians can help the poor- including supporting policies and programs that do so- is in line with the heart of God.
I have read all of the comments and the one from Joanna said it the best.You are doing a good job at budgeting and I don’t mind that you are using food stamps and people will debate this forever until they are blue in the face.
It is good that your husband is in school-a good education will help in the long run.Your situation is only temporary and you guys know and believe it.It would be bad if you your husband was not in school and he worked a low paying job and never further his education,thus having you always use food stamps.,or WIC or even Medicaid.
As far as the church helping you,in my personal experience.Some churches help you at first then expect you to do what ever it takes not to ever use government help or even their help.I had a pastor always tell me to open up a daycare fron my house.I decided to truly check into it to see about the laws and realized this is was easier said then done.The first words out of the lady were qho would be your back up daycare person if I had to an emergency and had to leave my house-I was speechless.My husband call the pastor and I am sure he would never do it.The point is sometimes what people tell you to do just so you won’t food stamps can be unrealistic.
I look forward if blogging is still around to see what happens when your husband is done with school.By the way having children in your 30’s isn’t old or that bad-both of mune were born then.
Thank you for sharing this!
I love the frugal Amish game! I may have to call mine that;)
Here is a post I wrote about getting assistance.
http://adustyframe.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/i-get-assitance/
One thought I had about the money you hadn’t spent, maybe you could use it to bless others right now. Like buying real healthy types of food to donate to food pantries, or to give to your Pastor or another struggling couple?
Thanks again for sharing!
Hi Beth,
Joanna told me this morning about your post, which I remember her pointing out a while back. I admired the discipline then and now. I’m really glad you are planning so well for the future (by not going into more debt than needed, finishing up the little bit more of schooling Josh has left to be that much closer to where God has called him to serve, etc.)
I grew up in circumstances that are strikingly similar to your own financially, and am kind of hurt by some of the attitudes in the comments. The message seems to be that people who can’t afford health insurance, food, and other necessities just haven’t worked hard enough, and are lazy, thus needing a handout that is costing all us “honest, hard working folk” our precious tax dollars. (Whose money is it anyway? Is it really ours? The moment I don’t think of my paycheck as actually being mine is the same moment I don’t mind, in fact, WANT, part of it going to fund programs like Hoosier Healthwise and food stamps.) I can tell you from reflecting on my childhood and continuing to watch my parents make ends meet today that this idea that people who can’t afford to have a life in the lap of luxury haven’t worked hard enough is ridiculous. Both of my parents work second jobs. My dad does so that the family can have health insurance, and my mom works a second job so that she continue working as an aide in the mentally and emotionally disabled classroom at an elementary, which pays very low and has no benefits, but gives her fulfillment and is where god called her to be.
While never being on food stamps (I’m sure we would have qualified, but I think it was a pride thing with my Dad), we did use the state funded health care system for me and my brother for several years. That allowed my parents to keep us in good health so that when my dad was able to get a second job that offered private health insurance, we didn’t have to pay all the copays and such for heavy dental work and other things that probably would have been cost prohibitive had we not been able to have preventative stuff done in the preceding years.
Another thing, I was able to go to college based on the grants that the government gives families of our income level. Was that wrong? I’m sure you know saving for college would be next to impossible at $15k a year. It seems to me that the spirit of any of these programs is to allow people to make it by so that people are able to turn things around and make ends meet. That’s really what happened in my family, and it seems like that’s what food stamps have enabled you to do.
I’ve had to deal a lot lately with the idea of poor=lazy coming up, virtually attacking my parents and the way I was brought up, so I think this topic just touched a nerve, and I just felt compelled to speak up a bit. I hope you guys continue to do as well as you are making ends meet.
Came across your blog from a “Frugal Fridays” link. Thank you for all this food for thought! My husband and I were debating the issue of WIC just last night. We are having a hard time making ends meet (despite trying very hard to budget responsibly and self-sacrificially) and are seeking what the Lord would have us do.
I don’t know where we’re going to come down on this issue, but your post was encouraging and inspiring, and the resulting debates in the comments have given me a lot to think about and share with my husband. Thank you for providing this opportunity (and it must be God’s timing that I stumbled across it today!).
Thank you all who have encouraged, all who have made themselves vulnerable by sharing their financial souls with me, all who have offered constructive criticism, all who have offered a different viewpoints to consider, and especially to my tried-and-true friends who have stood by me, even when they may not see exactly eye-to-eye with my philosophies.
The main point of this post was to encourage moms in similar situations. It was to offer advice, a helpful game-like attitude, and verses that have helped me survive day-to-day in this materialistic world. I can tell from some of your replies that I have been able to help; and this makes my day!
Thank you again to all who have taken the time to reply. It means a lot to me.
Oh, and [the other] Josh, as long as we’re bringing up the costs of college, I did want to add this:
The stipend my husband has pays for his schooling on top of the $13,000/yr to live off of. And his schooling costs are $50,000. That’s $63,000 per YEAR that this university is giving him, in a way. If his schooling was only half as much, that would be $25,000 more that we could use to live. Is there a reason higher education is this outrageously expensive? Part of the reason for the exorbitant cost of his schooling is that, even though he has resided in this state since 2000, they refuse to call him an “in-state student.” And so his costs double.
When my step-dad was attending this very same university, he was able to work during the summer to pay for the following year!
So maybe we should be addressing why college costs are soaring, making it much more difficult for college graduates to start their independent lives debt-free.
I agree about addressing rising college tuition. Enabling people who wouldn’t be able to afford college to go is a great way to end cycles of poverty among other benefits, but the price regardless of financial aid is becoming ridiculous. Among the topics that comes up when Joanna and I talk about a family is paying for college for our future children, and I think it’s interesting that our grandparents did not have to plan ahead like we do because for very good colleges, tuition was small enough you could work through it to pay your way. There was not much aid available when my Dad was in college in the 60’s, but my dad was able to work his way through college with a campus job during the week and a job every summer. That’s all but impossible now.
That said, I’m not sure how to address the costs, beyond maybe supporting politicians that we think will address the issue, and the skeptic in me tends to question the direct effect that would have, even if the candidate’s stated intentions are genuine.
Here’s a slight change in the direction of the comments: how difficult is it to feed your family on food stamps? Recently I read about a publicity stunt of a congressman living on food stamps (on the same amount of money), and trying to make the point that food stamps don’t provide an adequate amount of money to feed a family. Sounds like you’re saying that if you spend wisely it’s entirely sufficient. Or is the amount fixed no matter where you live, and its just that you live in a low-cost area?
Here’s a slight change in the direction of the comments: how difficult is it to feed your family on food stamps? Recently I read about a publicity stunt of a congressman living on food stamps (on the same amount of money), and trying to make the point that food stamps don’t provide an adequate amount of money to feed a family. Sounds like you’re saying that if you spend wisely it’s entirely sufficient. Or is the amount fixed no matter where you live, and its just that you live in a low-cost area?
It’s obvious you guys have thought this through. I understand you want your husband to be around yoru kids. So do I. So do the mothers whose husbands are in Iraq right now. However, his God-given responsibility is to support your family. Govt. aid in this manner is relatively new thing, it did not exist hundreds of years ago when the choice was work = eat. No work = family not eat.
It sounds like you are all blessed to have your health and youth and intelligence. You may have to get by on less sleep and do some work from home (medical billing etc) after the kids are in bed. It can be done. My church works with an organization to get people off govt. assistance. These are people who are not choosing to pursue a doctorate, these are for the most part people who either made very poor choices or have a health disability. Anyways, they still manage to do it. Single mothers with three, four kids. People with disabilities. If they can do it your family can too.
I simply do not understand the comments on here whereby someone somehow suggests that taxpayers are not supplementing your income. Of course taxpayers are! That is where govt. aid comes from. out of curiosity, have you approached your church?
Elizabeth –
We receive $353 every month in foodstamps. We use approximately $260 of it. And that’s eating a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables (which are not cheap!). Everything else we buy is generic. We do have meat with every meal. In my opinion, we couldn’t be eating any better and I am astounded that someone could suggest that foodstamps are not adequate.
There are a lot of factors that go into the amount of foodstamps a person gets: income, rent, utility bills, health and life insurance (strangely enough, not car insurance, which the law requires), and how much you have in the bank. One thing they don’t take into account in personal or school loans. So, no matter how much you are paying on loan payments, they don’t subtract it from your income. As we own our car, I’m not sure if they take into effect car payments. I would assume they would.
On a side note, my husband and I were debated the wisdom in the government not giving aid to those who were scrimping and saving to collect enough for a down payment on a house. If we only make $13,000, but spent every spare penny on video rentals and eating out, and didn’t put any in a savings account, we would get more foodstamps someone else making the same exact amount, but put everything they absolutely did not need into a savings account. (They ask for a copy of your bank accounts to verify how much money you have). I’m not trying to get out of paying for my own food, I’m simply wondering how the government expects people living in bad neighborhoods to get out if they’re not allowed to collect any savings. (Not that we are in a bad neighborhood).
Abby –
I have not approached my church. Maybe I should have. But I just moved here a year ago (less than, actually!). I wasn’t familiar with the programs they offered; I didn’t even think to ask what they could do to help. As you read in the above post, I didn’t even expect the government to help us pay for food until I went in to ask about Medicaid for my daughter. And, I have to admit, I prefer the anonymity of foodstamps. Walking into a new church and asking strangers for help financially is very daunting.
As for working from home, that is definitely something we are looking into. As you might notice – I just got ads put on my blog! The revenue from that won’t pay for much more than a frozen pizza, but it was just one small way I thought we could start.
Hi Beth,
I just read your post and I am bookmarking your blog as one that I would like to keep reading! One of my goals this year is to create a budget for my family and to stick with it. You are incredibly inspiring!!!
I love the fact that, even after all of the negative posts here, you stay positive. It makes me sad that so many Christians can place such negative judgements on good people. You are one of the good people that this world needs more of – keep up the good work. He will reward your perserverence and kindness.
Kara –
Thank you for your compliments! If you want to know how I endure the criticism, part of it is from the encouragement of people like you.
Of course, most is through trusting the Lord to provide for me and my family through whatever way He sees fit. A close second is relying on the fact that He made my husband the head of our home and I am to trust his judgment, even if it means he continues his education while we accept government aid.
Thank you again for your kind words! Good luck with your budget!
I have to admit to being one of those people who do not enjoy knowing my tax dollars are going to feed peoples families because they don’t want to work. BUT I feel in your situation you are using the aid provided correctly. You’re choosing to raise your kids yourself, eating healthy choices, and your husband is working to become a better provider for your family. I see this as what the system was set up for. So congratulations. I think you are winning at your Frugal Amish Game.
So, I just wanted to make a comment about the govt. assitance thing. #1 – if you are saying you’re paying taxes, make sure that you really mean it. Unless you actually PAID taxes (everyone pays a little bit of social security and medicare tax, but that is SO SO SO small compared to the income tax, which is what pays for a lot of govt programs) then YOU are taking as much money as anyone else, that or at least you aren’t PAYING taxes. Especially if you take any EIC or child tax credit. Many low-income families get money back each year that they didn’t even pay. Look at your taxes and make sure that when you’re acusing other people of taking govt money that you’re not actually taking goverment money, too. #2 – Down the road, when you ARE paying taxes, you will be supporting people who need a little help. #3 – Who is ANYONE to tell ANYONE when they should or shouldn’t have kids? That matter is between the couple and the LORD – no one else. And I hope everyone remembers that when they get ready to have kids. Don’t let the world, your friends, even your FAMILY influence that decision. If you are in touch with God, you talk to Him about. He is the one sending you those precious children, and HE cares more about them, and you, and how you live than ANYONE else could even TRY to care.
Sorry for the little rant. I’m just in the same position as a lot of you, and I don’t like taking goverment assistance, but you do what you have to do to take care of your family.
I’m amazed, I have to admit. Seldom do I encounter a blog that’s both equally educative and interesting, and without a doubt, you have hit the nail on the head. The issue is something that too few men and women are speaking intelligently about. I’m very happy I stumbled across this in my hunt for something relating to this.
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