It’s late. I’m tired. My title is boring.
If you haven’t already, read this previous post before continuing on. Or just continue on and be lost. It’s your choice.
Before I start, I really want to thank all of you who commented with support, encouragement, advice, and prayers. It meant so much to me, and I’m sure it greatly influenced the fact that I was able to hold my tongue and keep my mascara on my lashes where it belongs.
On to the Bible study.
I had been under the impression that the only reason for meeting tonight was to resolve the Benjamin/Olivia-gossip issue. But it started very generically with a “Is there anything anyone would like to say concerning our group” opening. Some minor details were discussed and some rabbit-trails were followed and an hour went by before our issue was brought up.
Actually, it wasn’t even our issue specifically. It was the issue of childcare. And the fact that the rules were that children were to stay downstairs during the study (they were careful to avoid the word “rule”, and made sure we knew exceptions could be made on rare occasions).
After that discussion had gone on for quite sometime without anyone bringing up our issues (and we, or at least I, was waiting for someone to say that Benjamin was a distraction, which never happened) Josh did the manly thing and with a slight cough said, “I’d like to talk about why we’re here tonight.”
We explained why Benjamin had been kept up with us. We apologized for any distraction he had been to anyone. We expressed that we had been hurt that the person(s) offended by our actions had not chosen to address us but rather had gone to other people in a rather un-biblical fashion.
Through the course of that discussion we found that really, only one person had been seriously bothered by our actions. Others were asked by that person whether Benjamin was a problem to them, but that was the extent of the “gossip”.
The one person upset explained that from her side of the story, she had given subtle cues to us that she wanted Benjamin downstairs.
We explained that we are socially-inept people and we do not take subtleties well at all.
All-in-all, the Benjamin issue was resolved with the exception of my personal relationship with the Subtle Person. I came to the conclusion that, at its foundation, what we have is a personality conflict. She is hyper-sensitive and I am extremely-oblivious. I offended her and went about my merry way because I had had no clue that I had done anything of the sort.
Unfortunately I was unable to talk to her about any of this as she was still a bit upset at me. Hopefully it will all cool off soon and, now that I know more about her, I can approach her the right way and we can grow closer.
The Olivia issue, it turns out, was never an issue. I think it just came up in the heat of a prior discussion with Subtle Person. I asked if anyone had any complaints about the way Olivia acted, or more importantly, the way we were raising Olivia. No one even knew what we were talking about.
(With one exception, but she had called me earlier this week to discuss her issues privately. I’m not saying I agree with her perception of Olivia’s actions, but I am glad that she took that courageous step in making that phone call.)
An older mom made the comment that a two and a half year old does not know how to share. And I am glad. The Person Who Called Me was there and heard it, so hopefully she now understands that different people have different expectations for two year olds.
Subtle Person must have talked with The Person Who Called Me and that was the extent of that “gossip”.
Everyone else thought we were doing a great job raising our children. And they admitted that if they were ever distracted by Benjamin it was their own fault and that it was because he was “so darn cute.”
We came to a conclusion about childcare as well. The basement will be split in half with a barricade separating the two parts. One babysitter will supervise the older children and the other will entertain Benjamin. And in a few weeks, another baby will likely join him (this baby was not a distraction issue, as his mom was very willing to get up and leave the room whenever he was a “distraction”. She is much more socially-ept than I am.)
I understand now that some people are not able to concentrate with baby noises in the room. And I’m not sure how okay I am with that. The whole situation has made me wonder what it would be like to have a Bible study with the children in the room with us.
Initially, yes, it would be chaotic. But I wonder if the more we expected from them (silence, respect, obedience), the more they would give us. They could have quiet activities in their own corner of the room. Coloring pages, blocks, puzzles.
And all the while, they would be overhearing the Word being taught. It would sink into their subconscious.
Does anyone out there do this? Is it possible? Is anyone out there strongly against this? (Basically my whole Bible study is, so I doubt I’ll be able to experience this anytime soon.)
I think it would be awesome to have children in on the Bible study if they could play and quietly listen too. The sad part is that a lot of people, even Christians, view children as inconveniences that need to be shoved aside so the important stuff can happen. Wouldn’t it be ironic to do a Bible study on the time Jesus told the disciples not to shoo away the little children…
Matt. 19:14
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
I’m glad things were resolved- sort of. (Sort of resolved not sort of glad).
One of the churches we attended didn’t have a nursery, they had a children’s church, but the children stayed in the sanctuary until after worship and prayer. They felt it was important for children to see their parents worship.
It wasn’t a very “controlled” setting, people could do about whatever they wanted, most of the children stood in the back corner and worshiped in a group, some of them would rung bells and other various instruments to join in. It was not a distraction to anyone. We actually liked it.
The no nursery thing didn’t bother anyone, and if a baby was crying and a parent tried to leave with it the pastor would say very quickly “he’s not bothering us, don’t leave”. And the truth was- he really wasn’t distracting anyone.
The world is full of distractions, we need to be able to worship with them going on. That’s my opinion.
Then I became a parent, we have gone to visit that church a few times since we moved back into the state and I have to admit, I cannot stand having Lexi in the sanctuary while the sermon is going on. I can’t open my Bible and pay attention because I have to make sure she’s not getting into anything or crawling away. (The floors are really dirty there too, so I don’t like to put her down).
So that is how I learned the truth behind the child distraction thing… to me, only my own child distracts me! That’s even worse than being distracted by other people’s children! he he.
So long one long comment and 20 minutes later- yes, it’s possible to have children in the same room while you study, and it works too. unless you’re like me and get distracted by your own child. However, if it was in a house and there were toys she could play with I don’t think I’d be distracted.
I am sooo glad it turned out better than you feared. I have a Bible Study, and I don’t bring my child – now, it’s in a private home, not a church, and the couple doesn’t have kids. When Emily was a baby, we brought her. She was fine. When she got to be walking, we got a babysitter. But sometimes I cannot get a person to sit for her (family member) and so I stay home. Is this a good solution? No! In fact, i ran into one member who told me to bring her (she’s 3.5 now) and they would watch her so I could attend. Their hearts are in the right place, but this house is so not kid-friendly. We are the youngest couple by far. No one else has small children, theirs are in college or even older. I love that we have this wisdom and life experience in our group, but it’s another reason I feel like we shouldn’t bring her.
However, if I found a group with parents and kids, I’d give the kids-present thing a whirl. Yes, they only distract you, and yes, she distracts me at church, but I’d rather have her there listening to the Word of God than playing in the nursery. I think kids have to learn to behave in church and to worship and they learn that by being there so it follows that they would learn more by being in the room during Bible Study than by not.
I understand how great it is to have nurseries at churches. Sometimes you have a mom’s group and a speaker you need to hear. But for regular worship and even Bible study, I think the choice should be up to the parents. I hope you find a way to experience Bible study with children!
Well, at some Common Ground house churches there are kids involved. At my house church there are only two kids, and they come and go at times. Sure they are distracting, but everyone understands and loves them as if they were their own. Some people even volunteer to watch after them, and we have involved them in different activities. As far as I know, it isn’t an issue. At some other house churches there are a lot more kids than ours, and I have heard that they involve the kids in the bible study part instead of having them off so the adults can talk. I’m not sure how they do that, because I haven’t went.
I think that having the kids around, or at least near, is a good way of modeling Christianity and faith to them. Shipping the kids off in another room, etc., models to them that they cannot be involved and that this is adult time only. The kids want to be near to the adults because what they’re doing looks like fun. (Don’t you remember being a kid and wanting to show off or be around other adults during get togethers?) Kids are usually very perceptive when it comes to modeling appropriate behaviors off of adults.
This was a very interesting story. I hope it all works out for you. I found myself in a similar situation after my first child was born except in my church there was no separate room for children… they were to sit with families and learn from infancy as the scriptures state. Yet despite this pratice I was basically ordered to remove my child from the whole church because he was cooing (1 year old). The same man and his associates were asking all parents with young children to leave. Needless to say I don’t go to church anymore. Parenting is hard enough without intolerant, ignorant people imposing their will on you.
We don’t do nurseries at our worship services, ever. Everyone is together.
I think it’s very possible to have a kids-present or kids-included Bible study, but it’s not always desirable. Sometimes the level of relational sharing that is going on isn’t kid-friendly discussion, and during times of warfare prayer, young children might be concerned by the tone etc. It also depends on the type of group, the type of study, and the individuals involved. 🙂
I’m glad things are better. We are considered a family integrated church which means that the children can come into the service. We have an optional nursery up to age 3 and then they automatically come in to worship. We keep Miss Hope with us and if she fusses, I simply step out.
Hmmm . . . interesting thoughts on including kids. 🙂 For a small group Bible study (or “home church”) I think it would be great (as long as the whole group was on-board).
For corporate worship settings (whoa — doesn’t that sound formal??) I have mixed feelings. As a parent – I really think kids should worship with their parents — there is something to be said for them learning how to worship that way. As an educator, I think we often expect WAY too much from kids when they’re in settings like that. They can only sit in one place and be quiet for so long. Developmentally, they’re just not ready for that.
So — I think it boils down to what is expected of kids in the given setting. As long as the expectations are appropriate (e.g. toddlers only have to sit quietly during communion, can sing along as loudly as they want to during songs, and have “room to roam” as long as they do it quietly during the lesson) then it SHOULD work.
I’m glad you got through this conversation,and had the courage to bring it up at all.
In our small group, we have a rotating schedule with two group members watching 4 kids under the age of 3. The 5th baby is still only a few months old and sits or sleeps happily in his car seat during the meeting, but will probably join the other kids when he’s mobile or more active. With this strategy, the kids look forward to coming to bible-study group, the adults that are watching the kids get some time to get to know each other while the kids play. Incidentally, our group meets at the only couple in the group’s house that does not have kids- Ours. To accommodate both the small group kids and the children of friends (The Natural Family included!) and family, we have a corner of a room stocked with age-appropriate toys.
To break with most your commenters, I see value in letting the kids play during the adult bible study elsewhere, and letting them go to classes during church with age-appropriate communication (“Sunday school”). Maybe my church is unusual, but it has age-appropriate lessons and learning activities for each age group (not just play time) except for infants.
Worship is not about sitting still. Learning about God can be done in ways other than a formal bible study. I want my (future, hypothetical) kids to realize that they can learn and worship when they’re playing too, or singing, or sharing, or talking or whatever it may be. I don’t want to instill in them that the only way to “do church” is to sit still and stare forward and listen to someone else talk. Following God, & learning about & worshiping him must be done with our whole being, and, for a child, that will mean movement and noise and lots of things that, yes, may interrupt a serious discussion. For adults, we need to engage intellectually and relationally over what God says as part of our worship and learning, so an ‘adult bible study’ format (or ‘sermon’ format) is appropriate. Children are in no way an ‘inconvenience’- but it’s fair to give them space to be who they are, so everyone can learn best in their own way. Does this make sense?
We’ve been to several types of Bible Studies — those that are obviously child free, provide childcare, and all inclusive family style.
Often, unless there is payed sitters (and sometimes even then) there really isn’t enough “watchers” unless it is a huge segregated system; not likely in a house setting.
Our comfort level depended on our own stage in life — childless: no issues, infant: we expected to be able to keep them with us; if this was an issue we either had my mom watch him or once we moved didn’t go. We couldn’t afford private sitters and didn’t know anyone to do it anyway — note we were always told we cold bring him; but as he began to toddle we, like you, didn’t want him in with the big kids in the basement (no teens just 10 and under)
Due to the issues you mentioned as well as several moves for us we quite often just didn’t attend a study for this season in our lives — however, when my oldest was 7 and my youngest about 1 …
We had a huge success with family Bible Study at one church — the church did studies by location — if you wanted to be in one you looked at the list to see which host house was the closest — unfortunately as we were new we didn’t know the area and didn’t have a good enough map to figure this out — so I asked a mother where she went and if we could go there. My youngest had some medical issues so we would not have gone if he could not be with us. The host family didn’t have a basement — the older children were in and out, down the hall, always within listening range — yes sometimes we had to get up and intervine — but as no adult witnessed the said event everything was delt with diplomatically, sometimes the children colored in the middle of the floor, or layed in a parent’s lap, sat at their feet with a small toy, they knew if they stayed in the room they had to be quiet (practice for service). Sometimes, the child added something profound to the study! Yes, somethings couldn’t be discussed — if it was critical to the study we did the following: A) wait for those who were of understanding age to naturally leave the room and go back to that question B) talk one to one during refreshment time — a must as a reward for the children being relatively quiet (my oldest loved Bible Study night in fact with my youngest they often called it party night) Point to note — since the study was by location several couples did not have children present or have children yet — it was just understood that this study had children and people came with that understanding.
I’m in Joanna’s small group, by way of full disclosure.
I wish the kids could be with us all the time, but like she said, there are five (soon to be SIX) of them 3 & under. I do hope when they are a little older that they can be more included, but right now they are just not at an age where they can sit still, or ponder deep thoughts with the rest of us. I am looking forward to what they have to tell us when they are older.
Anyway, I’ll save my thoughts on Sunday School for a “what I believe” post some time in the future. But let me say I’m glad to hear that you at least got your feelings out in the open. It does sound to me like you might look for a more child-friendly small group, if that is an option at all. I doubt that everyone else’s opinions are going to change on that issue if that’s how they feel, so if you want your kids to be included maybe you need to look elsewhere.
Small groups are *hard.* Mr. B. and I are in our FOURTH one, and the previous 3 all had various problems that led to the group dissolving. We were really about to give up on the whole small group thing even though we really believe in it in theory. Our group now isn’t perfect (EVEN THOUGH JOANNA IS IN IT,) but we seem to have been able to deal with things as they come up. It really helps not to have overly-strong personalities in the group, and it also really helps if people ARE willing to speak up if they feel something isn’t working, BEFORE lots of resentment builds.
Our church strongly encourages small groups to work on a “shared agreement” that states, up front, what the group will do about personality problems, child care, meeting times, people showing up late, addressing other issues lovingly & respectfully, etc. I wonder if your group has anything like this, Beth, or if it would just be “stirring the pot” at this point to come up with something?
My first thought, which was decidedly less godly than your own excellent first thought, was this:
Children are part of the family and as such should be included in Bible study if the parents wish it. I’m not saying it’s better to have the children there than it is to seclude them, I’m not picking sides. But g ee whiz, I’m fairly certain the Ingalls children didn’t have to go to the other room when a Bible study was going on.
If they’re all Rowdy Spice I can understand a sitter being brought in. But if they’re quietly doing their own thing? Reading, playing games, laughing amongst themselves? Let them see their parents searching God’s Word with other parents. Let them sit at the knees of the adults in their life and absorb as much as they can.
They are, after all, the future leaders of our churches. One day they’ll be leading their own families in Bible study. Let’s lead them by example.
Whew. Who knew I was so opinionated? 😉
Just another point on the small group thing – I was in three before I joined this one and had almost given up especially as at the time I was running the program to match people and publicize it! But I have been with my small group since 1999, a month after I got married. My husband joined a few years later. We’ve had some members leave and others come, but there is a core of us who have been together the whole time and it’s wonderful! We really gelled when all the spouses joined.
So to all your readers, small groups can work! Hang in there, you will find one!